Author Topic: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004  (Read 809540 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline BloodyCactus

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 482
  • Country: us
    • Kråketær
(e.g. I initially though that the UART decode framing issue might have been because I was running at 2Mbaud, but then verified it at more common rates.)

I need to see if I can reproduce that on my HMO1212 when I get some time. looks to be the exact same decode software and such, which doesnt surprise me.
-- Aussie living in the USA --
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13695
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff

Quote
Scope reviews are difficult.

They are actually impossible to do thoroughly.
Even on a basic scope like the new Siglent 2CH entry level job, testing and demoing every function everyone is interested in would be a several hour review.
Not to mention it being impossible to evaluate every feature in every combination to find bugs and usability issues etc. It's purely pot-luck.
Even my "quick overview" videos end up with 100-200 clips shot.
Yes - the R&S would take forever to cover thouroughly. All you can do is cover the basics and then look at what interests you, or what features are unusual (good or bad). I did nearly an hour just on serial decodes....

 
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline Neganur

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1138
  • Country: fi
Quote
or Mike's bug findings and usability/feature suggestions.
I usually find bugs and mention feature/usability issues in almost every review. Not sure why you think that would be a Mike only thing?

Oh, that wasn't my intention at all. You certainly do!
 

Offline Octane

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 103
  • Country: us
Dave, Mike,

I appreciate both your work. They are different style, which is a good thing, but you both do the best "real life" videos that I have found yet.
I think (hope) everybody here respects and values your efforts and thoroughness in your videos.

Michael
W4MFT
 
The following users thanked this post: EEVblog, dr.diesel, kado, skench

Offline ci11

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 106
  • Country: us
With regards to using an external amplifier: differential amplifiers or probes offer more amplification of low level signals, but they do not increase the dynamic range. Good low level sensitivity increases both signal integrity and the dynamic range hence the usefulness of the scope for audio.

hmm! Low sensitivity on its own is ofc nice but the scope's input amp still only does 1mV/DIV over 8 DIV with whatever resolution it has.
You can't  take advantage of sensitivity unless you can see the signal (dynamic range increased by HiRes mode) or what am I missing?

A good low noise preamp will do exactly that: improve system sensitivity, and give a noise figure better than that of the scope without preamp.
You don't necessarily give up measurement range either if your preamp has good enough noise figure, you can put attenuation after the preamp and still improve sensitivity while not amplifying overall anymore.

I also don't see how signal integrity is improved by lower sensitivity, sensitivity means I can detect signal - whether it's in good condition or not.

To me, low level signal sensitivity carries with it not only detection but proper triggering. If a low level signal can be detected but not triggered, it's not of much use. Dynamic range to me means a usable visualization range which would include both being detected through good sensitivity and properly triggered. Dynamic range "improvement" from Hi-Res mode interpolates and/or averages, and that's not the same as real data properly acquired through a low-noise, sensitive analog front-end, and excellent triggering.

Naturally, a good preamp or differential amp  can bring up the signal level but they cannot make up for shortfalls inside the scope's analog front end, which is the job of the scope maker. The RTB with its proprietary 10-bit ADC and R&S' analog expertise promises a lot, and that is my original question - how can this goodness with a low level signal at low frequencies be quantified?
 
The following users thanked this post: skench

Offline Neganur

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1138
  • Country: fi
OK, but don't expect me to understand you when you make up your own definitions of those terms ???

EDIT: I also am also not sure of your understanding what is in front of the ADC input in your scope...?
« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 01:56:10 pm by Neganur »
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13695
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Naturally, a good preamp or differential amp  can bring up the signal level but they cannot make up for shortfalls inside the scope's analog front end, which is the job of the scope maker. The RTB with its proprietary 10-bit ADC and R&S' analog expertise promises a lot, and that is my original question - how can this goodness with a low level signal at low frequencies be quantified?
An external amplifier can make up for lower low-level performance, both in input and trigger. Some of the front-end noise will go away at higher input levels.
See attached for full-screen 20Hz sinewave at 2.5 and 25mV/div ( using internal gen which has 20mv lower limit)
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 
The following users thanked this post: ci11

Online mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13695
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Scope rainbow!
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 
The following users thanked this post: WattSekunde, SeanB

Offline ci11

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 106
  • Country: us
Naturally, a good preamp or differential amp  can bring up the signal level but they cannot make up for shortfalls inside the scope's analog front end, which is the job of the scope maker. The RTB with its proprietary 10-bit ADC and R&S' analog expertise promises a lot, and that is my original question - how can this goodness with a low level signal at low frequencies be quantified?
An external amplifier can make up for lower low-level performance, both in input and trigger. Some of the front-end noise will go away at higher input levels.
See attached for full-screen 20Hz sinewave at 2.5 and 25mV/div ( using internal gen which has 20mv lower limit)

Thanks Mike. Gotta love all that screen real estate. Looks gorgeous.
 

Offline gslick

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 579
  • Country: us
Scope rainbow!

You found the Nyan Cat feature.

Is that the 4 analog channels plus 4 math channels?
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 37661
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Yes - the R&S would take forever to cover thouroughly. All you can do is cover the basics and then look at what interests you, or what features are unusual (good or bad). I did nearly an hour just on serial decodes....

 :-+

Yes, the R&S is quite frankly a daunting scope to review, especially when you know how much work is involved. It's like starting that complex PCB design from scratch.
But yeah, I do it the same way, basic + personal interest / unusual feature.

 My review style is to simply turn the unit on and press record and start playing and talking, going wherever it leads. Footage and commentary is all shot and done then and there. Often when I'm editing I'll realise I forgot something and need to weight up whether or not it's worth going back and shooting that bit. (My editing space and lab are now in two different locations BTW)
Sometimes I'm just spent and need to finish it and get on with other stuff, so I make do with what footage I got and just release that. If you are forever refining a review and adding stuff then it's a very deep rabbit hole.
 
The following users thanked this post: WattSekunde

Offline Howardlong

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5315
  • Country: gb
I don't think anyone's saying it's easy to review a scope. However as eevblog is a vlog for electonics engineers both professional and hobbyist, I'd say a candid review of a scope's operation is worth quite a lot more than a teardown, interesting though that may be.

To put it into perspective the Ds1054Z series of videos Dave did a year or two ago were thorough enough to base a purchasing decision on.

At the other end of the spectrum having seen Ben Heck's attempt on the KS1000, I was left wondering if he'll ever receive a scope again. To compare, Applied Science, not an electronics-specific vlog,  has done tons more with his Tek scope than Ben Heck has ever done wirh his freebie Tek, and his KS1000 explains why.

My point is that if you are going to drop potentially several grand on a scope, you need a reasonably well qualified person with scruples to review it. The same doesn't necessarily apply to a $5 lipstick (if that's what lipstick costs, ahem).

So yes I am being cynical, and I don't mind confirming it!
 
The following users thanked this post: WattSekunde

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 26754
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Quote
Scope reviews are difficult.
They are actually impossible to do thoroughly.
Even on a basic scope like the new Siglent 2CH entry level job, testing and demoing every function everyone is interested in would be a several hour review.
Not to mention it being impossible to evaluate every feature in every combination to find bugs and usability issues etc. It's purely pot-luck.
Even my "quick overview" videos end up with 100-200 clips shot.
Yes - the R&S would take forever to cover thouroughly. All you can do is cover the basics and then look at what interests you, or what features are unusual (good or bad). I did nearly an hour just on serial decodes....
I agree. The review I wrote early last year took me nearly 6 weeks (combined with other work) to complete and I still didn't cover everything. I don't even want to think how to edit that into a video. It would be like a music video clip!
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Zbig

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 927
  • Country: pl
Sooo... has it killed anyone yet? :popcorn: I came here for some gore but got a testing methodology discussion instead.
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13695
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Scope rainbow!

You found the Nyan Cat feature.

Is that the 4 analog channels plus 4 math channels?
4 analogue, 4 references plus maths
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13695
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Sooo... has it killed anyone yet? :popcorn: I came here for some gore but got a testing methodology discussion instead.
The MSOX1000 would make a better wepon - smaller and heavier ( steel vs. aluminium chassis)
Also the less shiny screen means the victim is less likely to see you coming.
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 
The following users thanked this post: Zbig, NA5WH, JoHr

Online coppice

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8605
  • Country: gb
Sooo... has it killed anyone yet? :popcorn: I came here for some gore but got a testing methodology discussion instead.
The MSOX1000 would make a better wepon - smaller and heavier ( steel vs. aluminium chassis)
Also the less shiny screen means the victim is less likely to see you coming.
Stealth scopes? That'll push the price through the roof.
 

Offline vokars

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 30
  • Country: de
1. ok we understand that a full RTB2000 review is too much for Dave for doing it right now. 2. On the other side the RTB2000 has some features many users are waiting for since the invention of the DSO :)

How can this discrepancy be solved?

Because the general feature overviews are already out there it could be a good idea to make several but short reviews from time to time that highlight special issues of the RTB2000 series. That could be vertical resolution, sensitivity, fast remote control or other issues the users have discussed in this forum.   

This approach would 1. inform users about the most important features in short-term, 2. save Dave's time and 3. Dave doesn't have to repeat things that other bloggers already have shown.   ;)
 
The following users thanked this post: WattSekunde

Offline JoHr

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 86
  • Country: de
Scope rainbow!

You found the Nyan Cat feature.

Is that the 4 analog channels plus 4 math channels?

4 math channels would be nice ...  but its done with 4 reference waveforms

@mike   add a unicorn with the annotation tool and post it  under #RTB2000  :-+
The law of conservation of bugs states that the total amount of  bugs of an isolated system remains constant. Bugs can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, they can be transformed from one form to another.
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13695
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Scope rainbow!

You found the Nyan Cat feature.

Is that the 4 analog channels plus 4 math channels?

4 math channels would be nice ...  but its done with 4 reference waveforms

@mike   add a unicorn with the annotation tool and post it  under #RTB2000  :-+
Bugger - forgot about annotations! I think have a cunning plan....
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13695
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Nyanscope! Excuse poor cat drawing skills.

Getting the solid pink block was tricky - the annotation only stores a finite number of blobs - if you keep drawing, earlier stuff disappears. Had do do something nasty using a reference waveform.

Pity the ARB only has one channel - could have done sound as well with 2!
 

Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w

Offline ws2812b

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 52
  • Country: at

Seems like you made the video private? So Youtube claims it isn't there?
 

Offline ws2812b

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 52
  • Country: at
 

Offline JoHr

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 86
  • Country: de
 :-+ ...  somebody out there who doesn´t like cats?
The law of conservation of bugs states that the total amount of  bugs of an isolated system remains constant. Bugs can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, they can be transformed from one form to another.
 

Offline agdr

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 105
  • Country: us
    • agdr Audio
Pity the ARB only has one channel - could have done sound as well with 2!

That absolutely rocks! ;D  Yeah I turned the sound up expecting to hear the nyancat jingle. Hey the scope has gbps connectivity, what better mascot than nyancat?   8)
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf