Keysight MXA Signal Analyzer / Spectrum Analyzer Review, Analysis & Experiments

[G0HZU]

It's easy to be an armchair critic

Jeez... have a look at my technical contribution to another signalpath teardown thread here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/video-teardown-repair-and-analysis-of-an-hp-8562b-22ghz-spectrum-analyzer/

Have another look here at another analyser teardown

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/teardown-repair-analysis-of-a-rohde-schwarz-fsh3-3-0ghz-spectrum-analyzer/

I waited several days to see if anyone else spotted the errors in the signalpath walkthrough in this last video.. but nobody said anything.
If you think it's 'easy' for someone like me to sit in an armchair and contribute the stuff I do then why are you not doing the same? You see from where I sit in my armchair your task seems a lot easier? Maybe I too should just say "Great Video" every time and put down anyone else who is critical and/or pointing out obvious technical errors?

[Hugoneus]

G0HZU, I don't know why this discussion is still going on.

But again, the point is not to dismiss the virtue of criticism or your contribution, it has to do with your style of doing it.

Your tone (sometimes) can be unnecessarily rude, you make strong assertions where you could simply ask a question or make assumptions which are invalid.

By all means continue to provide your valuable insight, no one is suggesting otherwise.

[Z80]

If you think it's 'easy' for someone like me to sit in an armchair and contribute the stuff I do then why are you not doing the same?

There you go again    did you read any of my other posts before making that assumption?  Look nobody is criticising you for commenting or pointing out possible errors, Dave annotates his videos all the time with corrections it's just the condescending tone you have.  Put yourself in the OP's shoes and read your comments as if directed at you and see if you don't think they are a bit harsh.  Having gurus like you contributing is a great asset to the forum so take my ramblings as constructive.
In respect of the original post can this not turn into a bun fight?

[G0HZU]

]There you go again    did you read any of my other posts before making that assumption?

Maybe you don't realise it but you made a very dismissive statement when you said "it's easy to be an armchair critic". Saying stuff like that can be offensive if a valid point was being made by that criticism. So I tried giving you the same treatment and you seem offended too?

It was a 1 hour video and from that I made just two very valid critical points. Looking at the noise pedestal on the analyser I used some basic engineering common sense to predict that the amp probably had about 45dB gain. A bizarre choice. Try and understand my frustration when I asked what the gain was and to be told it was just 25dB. But that doesn't make sense! The amp would have to have to be seriously faulty if this were true. I stood my ground and tried to explain why the gain must (realistically) be about 45dB. Even if the gain of the amp 'was' just 25dB it is still too much gain for a sensible doubler setup that gave 0dBm via the splitter and cable.  To me the bizarre nature of that test stood out like bollox on a dog.

The dynamic range test didn't seem that harsh and I think this point is valid too. But maybe harsh is open to interpretation I guess.

it's just the condescending tone you have. 

I'm not great at social skills online but I don't think anyone at work would call me condescending. Maybe you can help me here because in all the links I gave I can't see it. I can see me eventually getting frustrated in some cases. I'm frustrated right now for example...

[Z80]

No problem, I wasn't offended, just a little surprised you would think that if you had seen any of my other posts.  I apologise if I caused you offense that wasn't the intention, I (and several others) are just trying to point out that it wouldn't hurt to try and be a bit more polite and respect the fact that most Youtubers, like the OP, put a lot of their own free time (and money) into producing content.  Social grace isn't in the job description for an engineer and many of us (me included) can get excited / frustrated and say stuff that on reflection may be a bit harsh and unnecessary.  The only advice I can give is to do what I do.  Pause after writing something, put myself in the shoes of the recipient and think would I be happy reading that from a total stranger? 
Ok, this is my last word on this here as I don't want to pollute this thread with totally off topic stuff.  Happy to chat in another thread or on PM.  Keep posting and try not to get too worked up, it's just the internet.

[G0HZU]

Social grace isn't in the job description for an engineer and many of us (me included) can get excited / frustrated and say stuff that on reflection may be a bit harsh and unnecessary.  The only advice I can give is to do what I do.  Pause after writing something, put myself in the shoes of the recipient and think would I be happy reading that from a total stranger? 

That's good advice but I'm always going to struggle here I think. I try and only use nice emoticons yet it seems that my text is laced with hostile harshness (invisible emoticons?). I still struggle to see it.
If I look back into the forum in general  I see lots of people using the facepalm and the headbanging icon and other mocking icons. If people mimed that stuff for real in meetings where I work I think they would be told off very quickly.
Having seen these icons used a lot on this forum I try hard not to use them anymore. Imagine what my posts would be like if I did 

[Hugoneus]

Social grace isn't in the job description for an engineer and many of us (me included) can get excited / frustrated and say stuff that on reflection may be a bit harsh and unnecessary.  The only advice I can give is to do what I do.  Pause after writing something, put myself in the shoes of the recipient and think would I be happy reading that from a total stranger? 

That's good advice but I'm always going to struggle here I think. I try and only use nice emoticons yet it seems that my text is laced with hostile harshness (invisible emoticons?). I still struggle to see it.
If I look back into the forum in general  I see lots of people using the facepalm and the headbanging icon and other mocking icons. If people mimed that stuff for real in meetings where I work I think they would be told off very quickly.
Having seen these icons used a lot on this forum I try hard not to use them anymore. Imagine what my posts would be like if I did 

My policy is that I treat my interactions (on this forum) as much as possible like I would when I am writing an email to a colleague whom I will see the next day in person. I am not always successful, but I try.

[kcbrown]

it's just the condescending tone you have. 

I'm not great at social skills online but I don't think anyone at work would call me condescending. Maybe you can help me here because in all the links I gave I can't see it. I can see me eventually getting frustrated in some cases. I'm frustrated right now for example...

Sadly, on forums like this it's very easy to mistake matter-of-factness for shortness/harshness/condescension.

As someone who has been in electronic fora of one kind of another ever since Usenet was distributed largely via modem connections (at least for those who wanted their own personal feed), I can say that not ever taking anything personally that is said online is a necessary trait if discussions are to go smoothly.  There's just too many ways to misunderstand the underlying intent of others to do anything else.   I don't even bother to look for underlying intent in what is said -- I take what people say at face value, and if something looks like an insult, I just ignore that part and limit my attention to the facts.

To each his own, of course, but it's not a bad way to do things, IMO...

[G0HZU]

Thanks for that...
At work, all engineers have to endure critical design reviews of their designs and documentation etc. In a critical design review (CDR) I could be surrounded by a dozen or more people who have gone through my stuff in detail. They could be from manufacturing, purchasing, test, quality control, security, IT, sales/marketing and a whole load of keen engineers too.

http://www.acqnotes.com/acqnote/acquisitions/critical-design-review

This can mean me enduring hours of critical analysis surrounded by this lot in a big meeting room. We all have to go through it and it's actually a very healthy environment where we all learn from our mistakes. I've learned to respect all criticism from all departments. Sometimes the sales or manufacturing people say silly things but sometimes they make good suggestions and even the silly stuff sparks debate and stuff gets improved.

I'm from an environment where it's normal and actually encouraged to be critical. But on text based internet forums this environment just doesn't (can't) exist and I struggle to fit in.  I rarely post early on a thread for this reason and usually let it flow and hope that someone else spots what I'm thinking. Otherwise I become the pantomime villain again? The sad truth is I often regret getting involved in some threads. Especially the ones involving scopes!

[kcbrown]

I'm from an environment where it's normal and actually encouraged to be critical.

Exactly.   This is actually a necessary trait for good engineering.  You won't (except through luck or sheer brilliance) get a rock-solid bug-free design without critical analysis of the design, and it's best when that comes not just from you but from others as well, since there's always the possibility that you'll miss something simply as a result of perspective.  Different viewpoints are useful for the engineering process.  Nobody has experienced everything, and experience is a major factor in distinguishing between a solid, workable design and a design that has non-obvious shortcomings.

But on text based internet forums this environment just doesn't (can't) exist and I struggle to fit in. 

Actually, I disagree, and do so on the basis of experience, as it happens.  There's nothing to distinguish a text-based forum from any other gathering of people when it comes to effective critical review.  That's on the people, not the venue.   It has to be understood by all participants that the purpose is objective critical review.   That understanding is necessary not only so that the recipient will know not to take anything personally, but also so that those providing critical feedback know that they need to focus solely on that which they're reviewing, and not on who produced that which they're reviewing, as well as to make it clear to reviewers that they don't have to worry about their comments being interpreted as anything personal.


The problem arises when not all participants understand that implicit agreement.   And that's why I come into any forum with that kind of approach as the default.  In particular, I never take anything personally (even if I did, I have a thick enough skin that it wouldn't matter.  If someone thinks I'm a moron, that's on them, even if they might well be right!  They can provide feedback that would make it possible for me to improve myself, but I simply don't care about anything in that context beyond that).


In the software industry, which is where my primary expertise lies, there's a term for doing work in that field which maximizes the potential for improvement through critical review: egoless programming (see, e.g., https://blog.codinghorror.com/the-ten-commandments-of-egoless-programming/).   I think the approach that term applies works just as well for any engineering endeavor.

[G0HZU]

Actually, I disagree, and do so on the basis of experience, as it happens.  There's nothing to distinguish a text-based forum from any other gathering of people when it comes to effective critical review.  That's on the people, not the venue.   It has to be understood by all participants that the purpose is objective critical review. 

Ok, fair enough if you could control who is present but I was really just referring to public internet forums. You can't easily avoid the bigots or the stubborn types who put their ego ahead of the laws of physics when on a forum. So critical debate often ends up unproductive and inconclusive because stuff doesn't get resolved.

This is all way off topic so probably time to stop now...

[G0HZU]

At work we have a couple of the new/black  PXA analysers with the new screen. They are both rented and are used in the ATE area so I doubt I will get to use them. But I have seen them running alongside both the classic PSA and the previous gen PXA and the big screen does look good. From what I hear they are much faster at some of the tests so hopefully this will justify the rental costs.

[kcbrown]

Actually, I disagree, and do so on the basis of experience, as it happens.  There's nothing to distinguish a text-based forum from any other gathering of people when it comes to effective critical review.  That's on the people, not the venue.   It has to be understood by all participants that the purpose is objective critical review. 

Ok, fair enough if you could control who is present but I was really just referring to public internet forums. You can't easily avoid the bigots or the stubborn types who put their ego ahead of the laws of physics when on a forum. So critical debate often ends up unproductive and inconclusive because stuff doesn't get resolved.

I admit, it does make it somewhat challenging.  But that's where having a thick skin comes in handy!   

The nice thing is that the people who take their ego out of the discussion can engage each other with aplomb, even in the presence of those who insist on keeping their egos in the mix.  Nothing says that you have to engage someone who has a clear ego issue.   But there is some value in doing so (and actually, there's potentially quite a lot of value, especially if you manage to convince them to engage in an egoless manner).  When you don't have ego on the line but they do, it means that you can deal with the factual content of their messages without dealing with the rest.  If they get all pissy about what you say, that's their problem.  I'd explain to them, once, that what I'm saying is not about them, but about the factual content of their statements, and leave it at that.

So the bottom line is this: I encourage you to keep the criticisms coming, most especially if you explain the basis for them (that tends to prove most educational, so I greatly encourage it!), no matter what anyone who has some kind of ego on the line happens to think.  Those of us who are capable of looking past the style and get to the substance will benefit greatly from it.  Those who can't, well ... that's their loss!

This is all way off topic so probably time to stop now...

Heh.  Probably.   And normally I'd be inclined to take the conversation elsewhere.  But that would break continuity.