Author Topic: Oh NO! I'm never buying any Agilent Keysight equipment ever again!  (Read 72448 times)

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Offline coppice

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Re: Oh NO! I'm never buying any Agilent Keysight equipment ever again!
« Reply #125 on: May 24, 2016, 08:12:45 am »
Out of professional interest, I'd love to know what kind of defect a product could possibly have which would cause it to stop working when left unused - assuming that the product is being stored in reasonably benign environmental conditions.

I'm curious as well.  RTC battery runs out?  Easily forgotten to test when developing the product.
RTC batteries usually run for the life of the equipment. If something only fails after months of disuse its more likely to be a supercap discharging.
 

Offline Augustus

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Re: Oh NO! I'm never buying any Agilent Keysight equipment ever again!
« Reply #126 on: May 24, 2016, 08:17:23 am »
I've never noticed any supercap on Dave's teardowns of these scopes. Only one standard CR2032 lithium coin cell, as far as I remember...  :-//
Greetings from the Black Forest, Germany
 

Offline hs3

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Re: Oh NO! I'm never buying any Agilent Keysight equipment ever again!
« Reply #127 on: May 24, 2016, 08:28:40 am »
Out of professional interest, I'd love to know what kind of defect a product could possibly have which would cause it to stop working when left unused - assuming that the product is being stored in reasonably benign environmental conditions.

Could there be some kind data retention issue with NAND flash? Especially if there isn't sufficient error correction implemented which I have understood to be quite important with NAND.

Haven't there been some talk about SSDs and data retention issues if left unpowered for long times? I'm not really familiar with the facts but just something I remember being mentioned.

EDIT:

I looked into this a bit and found this document from Dell:
http://www.dell.com/downloads/global/products/pvaul/en/Solid-State-Drive-FAQ-us.pdf

On page 6 it has this:


I'm sure those data retention times are not the complete truth but at least it suggests that when NAND flash is used it can be an issue and error correction is important.

But do these scopes use NAND for storing the firmware?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 08:56:37 am by hs3 »
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Oh NO! I'm never buying any Agilent Keysight equipment ever again!
« Reply #128 on: May 24, 2016, 08:44:08 am »
So the guy was sent a replacement scope. but if it was, it seems to me the warranty should have reset and started again the moment he was sent the new scope.
Reset the warranty? After scope was in the hands of the customer few years already. Sorry, but if things worked like this, I could get a new device every few years for free endlessly. Joust break something stealthily, and here you go.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Oh NO! I'm never buying any Agilent Keysight equipment ever again!
« Reply #129 on: May 24, 2016, 09:43:16 am »


Woah! That little bombshell probably deserves a new thread of its own.

But do these scopes use NAND for storing the firmware?

The other thread says "yes":

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-dsox2024-won't-boot/msg947382/#msg947382
 
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Online AndyC_772

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Re: Oh NO! I'm never buying any Agilent Keysight equipment ever again!
« Reply #130 on: May 24, 2016, 09:53:30 am »
It's quite hard to design anything with a supercap to run for more than a few weeks between charges. Bigger caps tend to have a higher self-discharge rate too, so although a bigger cap can supply a larger current for a given period, they're unlikely to be able to supply any given load for a much longer period.

Besides, if that were the case, every scope would fail after a few weeks' disuse, and I know first hand that they don't.

I'm going with the NAND data retention idea, which would tie up with the relatively recent - if vague - firmware updates we've seen.

Offline wraper

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Re: Oh NO! I'm never buying any Agilent Keysight equipment ever again!
« Reply #131 on: May 24, 2016, 09:56:01 am »
Out of professional interest, I'd love to know what kind of defect a product could possibly have which would cause it to stop working when left unused - assuming that the product is being stored in reasonably benign environmental conditions.

Could there be some kind data retention issue with NAND flash? Especially if there isn't sufficient error correction implemented which I have understood to be quite important with NAND.

Haven't there been some talk about SSDs and data retention issues if left unpowered for long times? I'm not really familiar with the facts but just something I remember being mentioned.

EDIT:

I looked into this a bit and found this document from Dell:
http://www.dell.com/downloads/global/products/pvaul/en/Solid-State-Drive-FAQ-us.pdf

On page 6 it has this:


I'm sure those data retention times are not the complete truth but at least it suggests that when NAND flash is used it can be an issue and error correction is important.

But do these scopes use NAND for storing the firmware?
That is only valid for smallest lithography (largest size per die) processes available. Small size NAND like in oscilloscopes have much longer data retention. From personal experience, I have 64GB SD memory card which consistently corrupts the data which is older than 1.5 years.
 

Offline Psi

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Re: Oh NO! I'm never buying any Agilent Keysight equipment ever again!
« Reply #132 on: May 24, 2016, 10:25:45 am »
It's quite hard to design anything with a supercap to run for more than a few weeks between charges. Bigger caps tend to have a higher self-discharge rate too,

The six 2600F 2.5V boostcaps in my car (instead of a car battery) disagree with you :D
They tend to last ~2 months before the voltage is too low to start the car.
Greek letter 'Psi' (not Pounds per Square Inch)
 

Offline bsgdTopic starter

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Re: Oh NO! I'm never buying any Agilent Keysight equipment ever again!
« Reply #133 on: May 24, 2016, 10:41:35 am »
If the scope was out of warranty, what would justify such a repair cost? Mainboard change?

Alexander.

This story started "wierd" with someone claiming that the unit was "impossible to repair".
I don't understand "impossible" and I understand "impossible to repair" even less.

So the guy was sent a replacement scope. I don't know for sure if it was a brand new scope, but if it was, it seems to me the warranty should have reset and started again the moment he was sent the new scope. Since the "new" scope could have it's own , new, different "defects covered under warranty.

The ridicilous part of keeping a unit on a shelf, and not being able to rutrn on "because it sat unused" ...is also strange  and bizzare. What if you bought two in order to have one as a backup? Use it or lose it?
Electronic devices with a shelf life like potato chips?   C'mon!!!


Actually Keysight's technical repair team claimed the Oscilloscope was unrepairable. Daniel has the e-mails in which Keysight claimed this.
Keysight said the replacement was a brand new scope, never used or refurbished. The warranty did not restart as our laws around here do not demand that, so it would only happen if Keysight wanted to do that by its own.

I do not know if the scope failed because it was left unused for a long time, but we have a coincidence here, since two different scopes in two different parts of the world died after beeing left off for some time. Mine was working perfectly fine when put in storage and it was a backup unit. When they needed it, it simply refused to boot on the first power on and was sent to Keysight.

Count me in. My msox3104a also died after sat on the bench for 6 weeks. KS recognized it is a design fault and gave me an acquisition board replacement for free.

One more 'coincidence'... I do think this sounds like a NAND data retention problem.

I hope the OP changes the title of the post. Fully understand (following it from his initial post) why he felt so angry, I sure would too. But good customer service, even if it is late coming, deserves fair treatment.

Glad everything is coming together for you.

So what happens when this fixed one craps out? Seems like pretty shitty gear to me if it sits on the shelf until you need it and won't work when you want it to.


What worries me the most is that I have another DSOX2024A with an expired warranty too. You know when you get that awful feeling that something might fail anytime? I'm starting to worry about that, especially considering the high repair prices. If they do fail, it's the end of line, I will not repair them and will have to get a new unit. Right now I'm considering to leave a Tektronix scope as backup and putting my Keysight's to use so they dont stay off for long.
 

Offline TheAmmoniacal

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Re: Oh NO! I'm never buying any Agilent Keysight equipment ever again!
« Reply #134 on: May 24, 2016, 10:44:23 am »
Indeed, it does look more like a data retention issue than a supercap/voltaic cell drainage issue. 
 

Offline bsgdTopic starter

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Re: Oh NO! I'm never buying any Agilent Keysight equipment ever again!
« Reply #135 on: May 24, 2016, 10:46:40 am »
Out of professional interest, I'd love to know what kind of defect a product could possibly have which would cause it to stop working when left unused - assuming that the product is being stored in reasonably benign environmental conditions.

Could there be some kind data retention issue with NAND flash? Especially if there isn't sufficient error correction implemented which I have understood to be quite important with NAND.

Haven't there been some talk about SSDs and data retention issues if left unpowered for long times? I'm not really familiar with the facts but just something I remember being mentioned.

EDIT:

I looked into this a bit and found this document from Dell:
http://www.dell.com/downloads/global/products/pvaul/en/Solid-State-Drive-FAQ-us.pdf

On page 6 it has this:


I'm sure those data retention times are not the complete truth but at least it suggests that when NAND flash is used it can be an issue and error correction is important.

But do these scopes use NAND for storing the firmware?

WAIT. Some NAND only retain data for 3 months?? I had no idea about that. This is awful!! I have a laptop in my company running a Sandisk SSD and its rarely used, only for field work. I cant believe those big brands would ever release in the market a storage device with such a short data retention time!! I'll do some research straight away as this definitely worries me.

 

Offline wraper

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Re: Oh NO! I'm never buying any Agilent Keysight equipment ever again!
« Reply #136 on: May 24, 2016, 10:48:14 am »
Right now I'm considering to leave a Tektronix scope as backup and putting my Keysight's to use so they dont stay off for long.
That won't help you a tiny bit. This might help only with things like SSD because they rewrite themselves once in a while. Otherwise be it powered or not, doesn't make any difference at all.
 

Offline TheAmmoniacal

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Re: Oh NO! I'm never buying any Agilent Keysight equipment ever again!
« Reply #137 on: May 24, 2016, 10:58:27 am »
Even the datasheet for my Samsung 840 Pro SSD says "assumes the 3-month industry standard data retention time". Ironically I'm on my first day of a 3-month vacation, I hope all my SSDs will be fine when I get back (950 Pro PCIe M.2, 850 Pro, 840 Pro, 850 Evo).
 

Offline Augustus

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Re: Oh NO! I'm never buying any Agilent Keysight equipment ever again!
« Reply #138 on: May 24, 2016, 10:59:08 am »
You could do a firmware "maintenance" update every 6 months, to rewrite the NAND  :-DD
Greetings from the Black Forest, Germany
 

Offline bsgdTopic starter

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Re: Oh NO! I'm never buying any Agilent Keysight equipment ever again!
« Reply #139 on: May 24, 2016, 11:01:13 am »
Right now I'm considering to leave a Tektronix scope as backup and putting my Keysight's to use so they dont stay off for long.
That won't help you a tiny bit. This might help only with things like SSD because they rewrite themselves once in a while. Otherwise be it powered or not, doesn't make any difference at all.

So you are saying all Keysight DSOX series scopes will have a very short life, no matter what?  :rant:
 

Offline bsgdTopic starter

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Re: Oh NO! I'm never buying any Agilent Keysight equipment ever again!
« Reply #140 on: May 24, 2016, 11:02:16 am »
You could do a firmware "maintenance" update every 6 months, to rewrite the NAND  :-DD

This thing should rewrite itself every day if it cant retain data for 3 years!
 

Online AndyC_772

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Re: Oh NO! I'm never buying any Agilent Keysight equipment ever again!
« Reply #141 on: May 24, 2016, 11:12:19 am »
They tend to last ~2 months before the voltage is too low to start the car.

Well, OK, but it's still the same order of magnitude. Do you know if that limitation is due to the self discharge of the caps, or is there a non-trivial drain through the car's electrical system?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 11:34:16 am by AndyC_772 »
 

Offline Sbampato12

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Re: Oh NO! I'm never buying any Agilent Keysight equipment ever again!
« Reply #142 on: May 24, 2016, 11:29:41 am »
In my work, we have a DSOX2002A in my lab, a DSOX2014A in front lab and a MSOX2014A upstairs.
The MSOX have a little to no use (don't ask...) and after a while without being powered it had to go to repair at Keysight (was inside the warranty)... This could mean something.

I wonder what others gears could have this question about memory getting lost.

Other thing, I can't imagine to invest that much of money to just turn on once or twice a year... But this could be much more common than I think... :-//
 

Offline 3db

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Re: Oh NO! I'm never buying any Agilent Keysight equipment ever again!
« Reply #143 on: May 24, 2016, 11:36:03 am »
Even the datasheet for my Samsung 840 Pro SSD says "assumes the 3-month industry standard data retention time". Ironically I'm on my first day of a 3-month vacation, I hope all my SSDs will be fine when I get back (950 Pro PCIe M.2, 850 Pro, 840 Pro, 850 Evo).

I wouldn't worry,you can just restore your backups.   ;D
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Oh NO! I'm never buying any Agilent Keysight equipment ever again!
« Reply #144 on: May 24, 2016, 11:40:25 am »
This thing should rewrite itself every day if it cant retain data for 3 years!

It would have to be switched on to be able to do that to itself.  :popcorn:

 

Offline Tomorokoshi

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Re: Oh NO! I'm never buying any Agilent Keysight equipment ever again!
« Reply #145 on: May 24, 2016, 11:46:55 am »
Other thing, I can't imagine to invest that much of money to just turn on once or twice a year... But this could be much more common than I think... :-//

The more obscure, high-performance equipment tends to bought in single-units, even in larger organizations. Often there is a specific need at a specific time - therefore, once that aspect of the project is complete, the equipment goes back to general storage until the need comes up again.

Perhaps this applies for things like current shunts, isolated probes, etc. I know that a lot of equipment gets stored for a year or two.

From here:
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ForewordtoPPM.html

This is a very interesting perspective:
https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/larryosterman/2004/03/30/one-in-a-million-is-next-tuesday/
 

Offline TheAmmoniacal

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Re: Oh NO! I'm never buying any Agilent Keysight equipment ever again!
« Reply #146 on: May 24, 2016, 11:57:03 am »
Even the datasheet for my Samsung 840 Pro SSD says "assumes the 3-month industry standard data retention time". Ironically I'm on my first day of a 3-month vacation, I hope all my SSDs will be fine when I get back (950 Pro PCIe M.2, 850 Pro, 840 Pro, 850 Evo).

I wouldn't worry,you can just restore your backups.   ;D

Who even keeps backups!   O0
 

Offline madires

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Re: Oh NO! I'm never buying any Agilent Keysight equipment ever again!
« Reply #147 on: May 24, 2016, 11:57:59 am »
One more 'coincidence'... I do think this sounds like a NAND data retention problem.

That explains the error quite well. I'd guess we'll see some preventive maintenance hint about powering the scope every month for an hour or so  >:D Anyway, this is something we have to address in our designs when using NAND flash.
 

Offline 3db

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Re: Oh NO! I'm never buying any Agilent Keysight equipment ever again!
« Reply #148 on: May 24, 2016, 12:06:41 pm »
@TheAmmoniacal   :-DD
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Oh NO! I'm never buying any Agilent Keysight equipment ever again!
« Reply #149 on: May 24, 2016, 12:08:46 pm »
Right now I'm considering to leave a Tektronix scope as backup and putting my Keysight's to use so they dont stay off for long.
That won't help you a tiny bit. This might help only with things like SSD because they rewrite themselves once in a while. Otherwise be it powered or not, doesn't make any difference at all.

So you are saying all Keysight DSOX series scopes will have a very short life, no matter what?  :rant:
can you read  :palm::
That is only valid for smallest lithography (largest size per die) processes available. Small size NAND like in oscilloscopes have much longer data retention. From personal experience, I have 64GB SD memory card which consistently corrupts the data which is older than 1.5 years.
Don't put small capacity SLC and MLC NAND in the same bin as  something like 64 gigabyte per chip MLC and especially TLC
 


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