Apple bricking iPhones

[Muxr]

There is really no good reason to use 3rd party shops, when AppleCare is only $79. I could understand if it was more expensive but it is literally priced to be a no brainer.

So the guy who has to spend $1500 on a long plane flight to GET TO an Apple store has no good reason?

Yes you are right there is an astounding lack of logic in this thread.

Glad you agree.

What can I say...

Not sure what you're referring to. But if you buy any product from a company not available in the country you're in you're SOL. Do you expect Apple to dispatch a helicopter with a brand new phone to him? What company does that, I would like to know.

[tooki]

As I said, I have no problem with Apple taking action in such a situation - but bricking a phone completely seems excessively extreme.  Surely there's something a little less draconian they could have done?

But we don't know that bricking was ever the intent. It's clearly the result, but all we really know is that whatever test routines were added to the update process, they are now producing an unhandled hardware validation error that iTunes cannot fix. That is all we know. Everything else is speculation, and most of that speculation is extremely biased and uninformed.

It's entirely possible that Apple never tested the update procedure on a phone with a non-original Touch ID sensor, because that's not a hardware configuration that would ever leave Apple's hands.

Error handling in software is all about handling every possible constellation of variables, and the fact is, you never catch them all. That's when an exception is thrown and the system puts its hands in the air in defeat. I suspect that's what's happening here, that the hardware validation routine is encountering something it didn't expect and thus doesn't know how to deal with, and is throwing an unknown error (which is the exact wording of Error 53: Unknown hardware error).

[tooki]

This, then, begs the question - just how far from an Apple store is a reasonable distance for a customer to be expected to travel?

... and what happens when people with faulty iPhones are outside that?

There are Apple Authorized Service Providers (AASPs). Official dealers are capable of handling repairs. Apple also offers repairs by mail ("depot repair").

[Muxr]

As I said, I have no problem with Apple taking action in such a situation - but bricking a phone completely seems excessively extreme.  Surely there's something a little less draconian they could have done?

But we don't know that bricking was ever the intent. It's clearly the result, but all we really know is that whatever test routines were added to the update process, they are now producing an unhandled hardware validation error that iTunes cannot fix. That is all we know. Everything else is speculation, and most of that speculation is extremely biased and uninformed.

It's entirely possible that Apple never tested the update procedure on a phone with a non-original Touch ID sensor, because that's not a hardware configuration that would ever leave Apple's hands.

Error handling in software is all about handling every possible constellation of variables, and the fact is, you never catch them all. That's when an exception is thrown and the system puts its hands in the air in defeat. I suspect that's what's happening here, that the hardware validation routine is encountering something it didn't expect and thus doesn't know how to deal with, and is throwing an unknown error (which is the exact wording of Error 53: Unknown hardware error).

Agreed! Also a possibility.

[Muxr]

There is really no good reason to use 3rd party shops, when AppleCare is only $79. I could understand if it was more expensive but it is literally priced to be a no brainer.

But if you do take an Apple product to a 3rd party shop, for whatever reason, and that shop replaces the parts with fake/non original parts, you can't expect that phone to be the same product anymore. From any company's stand point all bets are off, and that should be common sense to anyone. Apple should probably provide replacement parts to third parties however, but they aren't obligated to.

Yes you are right there is an astounding lack of logic in this thread.

Glad you agree.

Its like talking to a wall. The phone was working before the update so the repair sanctioned by apple or not was still leaving the user with functional hardware. There are all sorts of reasons to use other repair shops. You don't travel anywhere?

Change a key component in your vacuum cleaner to something not designed for it, and then when it dies take it to the company that made it, let me know how they handle it. 9/10 times, will be "sir this vacuum cleaner has been tampered with, we can't fix it, would you like to buy another vacuum cleaner?"

I travel all the time. And everywhere I've gone has had an Apple store.

[Muxr]

There is really no good reason to use 3rd party shops, when AppleCare is only $79. I could understand if it was more expensive but it is literally priced to be a no brainer.

But if you do take an Apple product to a 3rd party shop, for whatever reason, and that shop replaces the parts with fake/non original parts, you can't expect that phone to be the same product anymore. From any company's stand point all bets are off, and that should be common sense to anyone. Apple should probably provide replacement parts to third parties however, but they aren't obligated to.

Yes you are right there is an astounding lack of logic in this thread.

Glad you agree.

Its like talking to a wall. The phone was working before the update so the repair sanctioned by apple or not was still leaving the user with functional hardware. There are all sorts of reasons to use other repair shops. You don't travel anywhere?

Change a key component in your vacuum cleaner to something not designed for it, and then when it dies take it to the company that made it, let me know how they handle it. 9/10 times, will be "sir this vacuum cleaner has been tampered with, we can't fix it, would you like to buy another vacuum cleaner?"

I travel all the time. And everywhere I've gone has had an Apple store.

The phone was working before the update so the repair sanctioned by apple or not was still leaving the user with functional hardware.

Your vacuum cleaner was working after you replaced its motor with the motor from you washing machine. Only when it died is that they don't want to honor the warranty, because it was tampered with. (still not clicking?)

[Delta]

While you're tapping yourself on the back, let me interrupt you for a quick second.

First of all his analogy misses the mark as I've stated, second of all, I am glad you two are not in charge of securing my fingerprint metrics.

So before this bricking update, what methods could an attacker use to gain access to your phone?

[Muxr]

While you're tapping yourself on the back, let me interrupt you for a quick second.

First of all his analogy misses the mark as I've stated, second of all, I am glad you two are not in charge of securing my fingerprint metrics.

So before this bricking update, what methods could an attacker use to gain access to your phone?

Why is it even important? (I've covered possible scenarios few pages back, I am not repeating myself and besides it's completely irrelevant to the issue). No manufacturer is obligated to provide a working product after it had key components replaced by non-compatible parts which remove the device's functions.

[Delta]

While you're tapping yourself on the back, let me interrupt you for a quick second.

First of all his analogy misses the mark as I've stated, second of all, I am glad you two are not in charge of securing my fingerprint metrics.

So before this bricking update, what methods could an attacker use to gain access to your phone?

Why is it even important? (I've covered possible scenarios few pages back, I am not repeating myself and besides it's completely irrelevant to the issue). No manufacturer is obligated to provide a working product after it had key components replaced by non-compatible parts which remove the device's functions.

It matters because that has been used repeatedly as a defence of Apple's actions!

As far as I understand, the only attack vector assumed that biometric data was also stored elsewhere, which it isn't.

[Muxr]

While you're tapping yourself on the back, let me interrupt you for a quick second.

First of all his analogy misses the mark as I've stated, second of all, I am glad you two are not in charge of securing my fingerprint metrics.

So before this bricking update, what methods could an attacker use to gain access to your phone?

Why is it even important? (I've covered possible scenarios few pages back, I am not repeating myself and besides it's completely irrelevant to the issue). No manufacturer is obligated to provide a working product after it had key components replaced by non-compatible parts which remove the device's functions.

It matters because that has been used repeatedly as a defence of Apple's actions!

As far as I understand, the only attack vector assumed that biometric data was also stored elsewhere, which it isn't.

It could be a range of things, from security to a legitimate bug. When you remove a component and replace it with a simple button, you can't really expect the device to behave the same. Weather it's a legitimate security measure which it very well might be, it really doesn't matter. Because no manufacturer is under obligation to design products in such a way where you can replace parts and remove functionality and expect it to function flawlessly. It is just silly to think that anyone should design a product to work with just any hardware you plug in.

[Brumby]

It is just silly to think that anyone should design a product to work with just any hardware you plug in.

... and it is silly to think that anyone could actually design a part that is compatible.



But what's even sillier is my continued interest in this topic.  I'm outta here.

[Muxr]

It is just silly to think that anyone should design a product to work with just any hardware you plug in.

... and it is silly to think that anyone could actually design a part that is compatible.

No one is talking about a compatible part here. They are plugging in a regular button in place of a TouchID button.

[edavid]

It is just silly to think that anyone should design a product to work with just any hardware you plug in.

... and it is silly to think that anyone could actually design a part that is compatible.

No one is talking about a compatible part here. They are plugging in a regular button in place of a TouchID button.

We don't know if that's the case.  Lots of iPhone replacement parts are available to independent repair shops.  Maybe they are plugging in a completely identical TouchID button, but they don't have the right software to pair it with the phone.

[Muxr]

There is really no good reason to use 3rd party shops, when AppleCare is only $79. I could understand if it was more expensive but it is literally priced to be a no brainer.

But if you do take an Apple product to a 3rd party shop, for whatever reason, and that shop replaces the parts with fake/non original parts, you can't expect that phone to be the same product anymore. From any company's stand point all bets are off, and that should be common sense to anyone. Apple should probably provide replacement parts to third parties however, but they aren't obligated to.

Yes you are right there is an astounding lack of logic in this thread.

Glad you agree.

Its like talking to a wall. The phone was working before the update so the repair sanctioned by apple or not was still leaving the user with functional hardware. There are all sorts of reasons to use other repair shops. You don't travel anywhere?

Change a key component in your vacuum cleaner to something not designed for it, and then when it dies take it to the company that made it, let me know how they handle it. 9/10 times, will be "sir this vacuum cleaner has been tampered with, we can't fix it, would you like to buy another vacuum cleaner?"

I travel all the time. And everywhere I've gone has had an Apple store.

The phone was working before the update so the repair sanctioned by apple or not was still leaving the user with functional hardware.

Your vacuum cleaner was working after you replaced its motor with the motor from you washing machine. Only when it died is that they don't want to honor the warranty, because it was tampered with. (still not clicking?)

The vacum cleaner manufactuer updateing the firmware bricks your vacum that was functioning fine. Is that clicking yet? I'll spell it out for you you wouldn't need warranty work if your vacum manufactuer didn't deliberatly fuck your vacum over, clear now?

The iPhone doesn't get bricked out of the blue moon. Someone first decided it was a good idea to remove the TouchID from the phone.

1.) remove TouchID button
2.) use the phone with [an important] security component missing
3.) be surprised when something breaks.

How is that not a fault of #1?

Why don't you delete your Chrome's CA certificates and then blame Google because you can't access SSL sites. Let's see how far you get with that complaint.

[Muxr]

The iPhone doesn't get bricked out of the blue moon. Someone first decided it was a good idea to remove the TouchID from the phone.

1.) remove TouchID button
2.) use the phone with [an important] security component missing
3.) be surprised when something breaks.

How is that not a fault of #1?

Why don't you delete your Chrome's CA certificates and then blame Google because you can't access SSL sites. Let's see how far you get with that complaint.

Then it should have been bricked right away! What are you failing to grasp about that. If its such a critical security feature why did it take apple years or months to come up with the half assed solution? Do you get that?  If its a new update that is going to affect users, that apple knows have had unsanctioned repairs, then give them the option not to install it. The damage has already been done, so not alerting users that the update bricks their phone is either a gross oversite or likely puinitive measures from apple to punish customers for giving someone else their money. Maybe people are just fine with having no touch id, did that ever occur to you?

What don't you get about pulling random components out of a device and getting unexpected results? Let me see one of your boards. And let me pull a random component out of it and see if you accounted for it.

The only thing you can accuse them of is incompetence if they screwed up the security model. Malice no, because a device is not supposed to function with key components missing.

[Muxr]

What don't you get about pulling random components out of a device and getting unexpected results? Let me see one of your boards. And let me pull a random component out of it and see if you accounted for it.

Christ your thick. The phones were fixed and in use for months, the owners were happy with them obviously or they would have got their daddies to buy them a new one. It’s not the repair that screws the phone its apples disproval of where you got the repair done killing the phone. Again if the phone would have been bricked instantly or the nicer way access to secure data terminated then it would have been fine it would have been a non-story. Instead they choose to release an update looking for their approved hardware possibly months or years after its been replaced and nuked those phones.

Do you understand that if hardware is in place for months or years that if it was going to be compromised it would have already been done. This takes us back to either gross oversite or apple being dicks, you take your pick.

I agree it should have bricked instantly. But then again perhaps it wasn't designed to work with that button. I dunno, what do you think? Should you be able to just mix and match components on a device and expect it to perform flawlessly?

[Jeroen3]

The only thing you can accuse them of is incompetence if they screwed up the security model. Malice no, because a device is not supposed to function with key components missing.

Well not exactly. The device will no longer leak information. Or be vulnerable to attacks.

Also, is it ready confirmed that error 53 is intentional? Or is this still speculation from the Anti-Apple community?
Some of the jailbreaker crews must have investigated something.

It is indeed not to be expected that any company should test their phone with third party parts. Nevertheless they work "most of the time". How many error 53s are there? How many units were sold?

[Muxr]

The only thing you can accuse them of is incompetence if they screwed up the security model. Malice no, because a device is not supposed to function with key components missing.

Well not exactly. The device will no longer leak information. Or be vulnerable to attacks.

Also, is it ready confirmed that error 53 is intentional? Or is this still speculation from the Anti-Apple community?
Some of the jailbreaker crews must have investigated something.

It is indeed not to be expected that any company should test their phone with third party parts. Nevertheless they work "most of the time". How many error 53s are there? How many units were sold?

There are a lot of error 53. And it mainly stems from screen replacements. See people drop their phone and break their screen. They don't have AppleCare ($79) coverage. So they go to these mail in 3rd party services. They use a knock off screen and button assembly and they replace the whole thing. Only problem is the new button is just a button it's no longer the original touch ID. The user then notices their TouchID no longer works. But they ignore that issue, the screen works at least (although there are a lot of people on google complaining about it after screen replacement).

When they try to upgrade the firmware for whatever reason Apple expect the TouchID to be there and when it isn't it throws an error 53. Can't really blame Apple for it imo. TouchID shouldn't have been tempered with. Now the user is stuck because the warranty is void. The 3rd party made his money, Apple is stuck with an unhappy customer. They themselves can't just conjure the button the phone has to be refurbished. Both the customer and Apple are getting screwed.

I can probably guess with a good amount of certainty, that Apple doesn't like anyone stripping their phones of features, especially not security features which enable things like ApplePay, and they definitely don't like unhappy Apple customers. I would be surprised if this doesn't blow back on the 3rd party repair services.

[Muxr]

If I were Apple at this point I would just raise the price of iPhone by $30-40. That oughta cover everyone with automatic AppleCare. Future problems solved.

[edavid]

There are a lot of error 53. And it mainly stems from screen replacements. See people drop their phone and break their screen. They don't have AppleCare ($79) coverage. So they go to these mail in 3rd party services. They use a knock off screen and button assembly and they replace the whole thing. Only problem is the new button is just a button it's no longer the original touch ID.

You are the only one making the claim that error 53 is due to a missing Touch ID button.  All of the press reports and Apple statements describe a situation where the Touch ID button is present, but somehow not properly paired with the phone.

[Muxr]

There are a lot of error 53. And it mainly stems from screen replacements. See people drop their phone and break their screen. They don't have AppleCare ($79) coverage. So they go to these mail in 3rd party services. They use a knock off screen and button assembly and they replace the whole thing. Only problem is the new button is just a button it's no longer the original touch ID.

You are the only one making the claim that error 53 is due to a missing Touch ID button.  All of the press reports and Apple statements describe a situation where the Touch ID button is present, but somehow not properly paired with the phone.

Well you didn't do enough research. I posted a video in this thread of a lady who repairs iDevices full time. And she explains it quite well.

[Delta]

This is like talking to a brick wall.

Ta-ra Muxr, enjoy your iMachines, and I genuinely admire your devotion to the iCause.

[Muxr]

This is like talking to a brick wall.

Ta-ra Muxr, enjoy your iMachines, and I genuinely admire your devotion to the iCause.

I only care about the common sense. I am pretty mellow on the whole Apple thing. I don't troll Android or any other posts bashing other companies. I got a laundry list of my own issues with Apple. I just get annoyed at the double standards and FUD.

I mean I get the fanboyisms at review sites and youtube comments, I stay clear of that crap, but EEVBlog is better than that. We should be able to have common sense conversations, while finding out the technical facts. I will be the first one to admit when I am wrong. Peace 

[eas]

I can probably guess with a good amount of certainty, that Apple doesn't like anyone stripping their phones of features, especially not security features which enable things like ApplePay, and they definitely don't like unhappy Apple customers.

Yup, exactly.

Some people don't understand why other people pay a premium for Apple products. So, they attribute it to stupidity, marketing (also stupidity), or being sheep (again, stupidity). They ignore what is obvious to a lot of happy Apple customers, Apple does a lot to keep their customers happy, because happy customers pay a premium for Apple products, over and over.

Do Apple products have problems sometime?  Yup. Does doing something other than Apple intended sometimes seem more difficult than it should be? Yup. I still think I've come out ahead on time and frustrations. If you don't like my choices about such things, well, get a life.

As for Apple just wanting people to pay for first party parts because they are greedy, maybe, but I've also had Apple replace third-party memory and storage in my laptop for free when doing a paid repair on another part of the system. Oh, and there was the time an Apple store they declined to try to help a friend's girlfriend get data off the damaged HDD in an old iMac that had been damaged in a house fire, but they sent her home with a new iMac, no charge.

Oh, and the idea that this couldn't be about security because it didn't happen until over a year after the iPhone6 first shipped: ignorant and foolish. The security landscape is always evolving and changing. New threats emerge. Evolving defenses limit the ROI of people developing and deploying exploits.

[miguelvp]

Let the lawyers figure it out, the class action suit probably will get settle and the customers might get free phone replacements, but I think the policy will prevail.

I don't think that scanning the hardware every time you boot the phone is feasible because boot times would take forever, so apparently they only scan during updates.

But does the update prevent entering Recovery and Safe Mode?
Say someone steals a phone and tries to factory reset it without access to the OS because they don't have the fingerprint or the passcode. Can they take out the TouchID and do a factory reset?
Can a factory reset be done without the fingerprint of the TouchID?

Just asking because I don't know if the update prevents that. If it doesn't then the only security they are talking about is that access to the data is impaired if touch id is enabled and the fingerprint is not accessible.

What is the cost of an iPhone to Apple? $250? well they might not mind shelling out a million dollars to settle with the civil class action suit. A different thing would be if they are found guilty on criminal charges in the EU.

I guess we'll wait and see.